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DashPay has been ruined by guys like Basilpop. It's a total astroturf now.

DashUncensored is created by dnale0r, a Monero fanatic troll and has been from the start nothing more then a medium to troll Dash.

Anyone pointing to this specific Reddit thread is not acting in the best interest of Dash and should be viewed as highly suspicious.

Seriously, you are so stupid! Dash Masternodes have NO CONTROL over who runs a reddit thread, they're owned by whomever started the thread!

Think whatever you want, but don't go around calling people stupid. It might fall back on you. Especially when you apparently don't know the difference between a thread starter and a mod.

I'd like to see a proposal to have Julio turn all of his dashcrypto accounts and IP over to the DAO. He's the one damaging the Dash brand, not Basil.

As samli88 pointed out, masternode owners have a 4th voting option available to them, which is to vote "delete yes" to delete this proposal from the budget list and memory entirely. It will need 66% support I think samli88 wrote. I'm asking rango if this option can be integrated into Dash Central.

looking forward to Rango adding that option. In the meantime, just saying, forums are not owned by MNs and we have no say as to who runs them.

I agree. Also i want to mention that this also relates to Dash Central, rango is in no way obligated to act on my request. He is also in full control of his own Dash Central site and could very well have a different opinion about it. Then there is also Dash Nexus, that then also should be asked to support it.

Now it may be difficult to reach 66%, but it can serve as a strong signal to indicate something is very wrong with such a proposal. Specially if it gets more votes then the other voting options.

We can even set a rule which will invalidate a polling proposal, when the delete yes votes are higher then the yes, no and abstain votes.

All good ideas. Seconded.

Walter

He really F'd up this proposal but he's not wrong about basilpop-macrochip. basilpop has no business being a moderator for anything. "But he's such a Wealth of Knowledge! Who else can Battle the Trolls?" Hey guess what? He doesn't need to be a moderator in order to still be the Great Wealth of Knowledge(tm) and Troll Slayer that he is. The way he conducts himself is not befitting for a moderator for any community, full stop. Let him contribute to his heart's content but don't have him do it while at the same time giving Dash a bad rep with his lousy aggressive attitude as a moderator. He's a loose cannon, definitely does not meet professional standards and anything sets him off, always escalating situations by striking back at people twice as hard. Any normal organization would never allow a person like him to be in that position.

Too bad "realist" blew the opportunity with a shitty proposal.

I'll second this. I had my own run-ins with Basilpop and find his aggressive behavior highly irritating. I remember the first time, when I first started looking into Dash, he called me all kinds of names for asking the wrong questions. Completely uncalled for.

If it wasn't for others being a lot more welcoming, I'd have turned my back before I even got involved. Glad I stayed. I just went to the Dash Convention in Switzerland and met a very nice community in person. But I ended up with Dash despite Basilpop, not because of him.

Unlike the other proposal, which may get a lot of No votes just to deny PO the profit, my No vote for this proposal/question is real.

I was told governance proposals should be for 5 DASH and this one is exactly 5 DASH.

What is wrong about this proposal? And why do you have to call it shitty?

Hi, I am sorry for all the money you have spent.

I think governance in Dash needs to be improved a lot. And the fact that this kind of confusion is created is part of the problem.

I shall try to explain you what is the problem with this proposal.

When you make a proposal, the yes/no options don't pass in a symmetric way. For a yes to pass you need supramajority, in other words you need more yes then no. I think 10% of the masternode of difference. So when you ask a question requiring a change it is important that the status quo is the No, and the change is the Yes.

This makes a lot of sense, as it avoids the Dao changing idea all the time. For the Dao to change idea you need at least 10%+1 masternode to swing vote.

Also the fact that with a yes, you get back your money is for many a way of saying: I think this change should happen. If you are right you get back the money. If you are wrong you pay for everybody time.

Many people would see the opposite (wording the question as: yes means status quo, no means change) as trying to make it easier on yourself.

I agree nudfelsyoshy. I also believe that the proposal owner knows this, he/she is smart enough to understand this, but they chose to do it this way anyway. Even though it renders the poll meaningless and wastes MNOs time.

It’s a misuse of the system, one which many suspect is deliberate and contrived.

The PO should not be surprised that it provokes a strong reaction from MNOs.

There is a much bigger governance debate to be had, hopefully this kind of thing will spur on such discussions in the future.

Walter

That's just your opinion, and many others disagree with you, including me. There's nothing wrong with this proposal.

"There's nothing wrong with this proposal"
Everyone is telling you what is wrong with it but you are not listening. There are several different things wrong with this proposal that others have pointed out. That is why I called it "shitty." I agree with you completely about basilpop. I have raised my concerns with basilpop in the past and have done it again here. He should not be a moderator. I am on your side. But you could not be more wrong about this proposal. Take your fingers out of your ears and think for a minute that you might actually be wrong about this.

You asked, what was wrong with this proposal, I tried to answer you in the most kind way I could.

It is not an opinion that the yes/no is not symmetric as it is coded right now, and that on one side you need a supramajority. That is a fact.

It is also not an opinion that if you have a system where you need a supramajority for the status quo the system is unstable. This is a fact.

The shared opinion is that the Dao should not be unstable. And the corollary of that being that you need to word the question in a way that you need a supramajority to make a change.

You could disagree with this, but then you would implicitly ask for an unstable Dao. Something other masternodes do not want.

It is an opinion that people should pay when they are using other people time. But it is a shared opinion around here. I think you are intelligent enough to understand it, even if you do not agree with that. And sometimes when we enter in a community we need to accept their way to do things. When in Rome and all that.

I honestly wish you good luck for your next proposals. I think I have done as much as I can for you.

The way you decided to phrase both this and the last question render them unable to be properly voted on.

Please rephrase the questions and submit the proposal so that the affirmative is a call to action.

No it doesn't. You don't get to make new rules.
YES = YES
NO = NO
ABSTAIN = ABSTAIN.

Fully agree with kevmate, an admin or moderator from an official Dash channel should refrain from using offending and insulting language like labeling somebody a "piece of shit". Is something like that necessary? Like, really?
Not kind at all, to hurt the feelings of others in such a way.
I believe in freedom of speech and expression, but i think there is another way more nice and kind to express a dislike or disagreement, especially for somebody acting in an official role within an official channel.
An admin/moderator should at least be aware, that his words and phrasing contributes to how we as a community are perceived by others and ourselves alike.

Agreed, but our responses should be more subtle

We as the face of the dao represent it like it or not we need to maintain a cool head and this goes especially for mods and dfos and MNO

I don't know that much about basilpop, but I am completely sure that anyone who describes anyone as a "piece of shit" will never, under any circumstances, get my support. Open and shut case mate.

Here is all you need to learn about Macrochip. https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/basilpop-the-dash-subreddit-moderator-does-not-have-the-temperament-to-moderate-that-community.37653/

He insulted thousands of users while being a moderator for r/Dashpay. Totally unnecessary.

If this vote was to pass and get funded, the Dash DAO does not have governance over r/Dashpay moderation anyway. We might as well vote on whether or not to allow Dashy yachts to sail on the moon.

Yes it does. The Dash DAO owns DCG, and DCG controls r/DashPay though Tungfa. They can remove any moderator except Evan Duffield. , and this proposal is to remove one of them (Basilpop).

Such a lack of understanding.

That’s just not true. The Dashpay reddit is NOT an asset of Dash Core Group Inc. It is a private account owned by Evan Duffield that just so happens to have a Director of Dash Core Group Inc on the moderation team. There is a difference. Please don’t conflate the two.

Walter

Hi Walter,
nice to meet you again here.

Leaving aside the fact that this proposal has been posed contrary to how we normally word it. And this creates some problems (supermajority being versus the change and not the status quo).

Would Evan be open to receive a request from the Dao?

In case, would you, as a Dao Trust protector be willing to deliver the request?

Cheers,
Pietro

Hi Pietro,

It’s something I can request to be added to the agenda for discussion at the next TP meeting with the Dash Core Inc Board.

We can enquire but it’s up to Evan. He has no legal obligation to transfer ownership of the dashpay Reddit to Dash core group inc.

Hope this helps.

Walter

Sorry Walter, I am missing you here.

Why would we ask Evan to transfer ownership? Can't just Evan act on it directly? The Dash Core Group has really nothing to do with it.

I agree that Dash Core group has nothing to do with it. If the network wants DCG to have ownership of the dashpay reddit then it’s a dialogue that needs to be opened direct with Evan. I’m just suggesting ways it could potentially be initiated from DCG side if there was support for it.

This is academic at this stage though, I’m sure you agree, as this proposal isn’t about transferring ownership of reddit, it’s about a moderator on a privately owned forum.

Walter

Why should Walter ask Evan to demote someone directly ? That does not make sense.

I think we should leave Evan out of this and put an end to this whole messy proposal and move on.

Trust Protectors have really not much to do with this proposal and should not get individually involved with personal favors from a Dash community member. Why dont you contact Evan directly, if it bothers you this much ?

Poor Evan, getting dragged into all of this due to an invalid polling propsal and having to deal with a totally unclear picture who supports macrochip / basilpop as moderator and who does not support him (most likely a lot of trolls that got banned by him)

Qwizzzie,
Ignore this proposal, I don't care about this proposal.

I only care about governance. And I think it is important to know if the Dao can make requests to the Dash subreddit owner to demote a person for some particular reason.

I am not active in Reddit so I never got in touch with this gentleman, so I have nothing against him personally. But I am observing several MNO who say: "The proposal is ill posed, but the intention is good, and the need is there".

We need all tho know what are the limits of the Dao. Would a proposal like:
"We should ask Evan to demote this moderator ... because it gives Dao a bad name".

Would this be acceptable?

Evan can still refuse to do it. But then he will be taking responsibility and distancing himself from the will of the Dao, and my undertsanding is that he wants to be in good relation with his baby.

And regarding the Trust protectors, they are the protector of the Dao Trust , but the Dao Trust is not just important because it owns the DCG. It is also the legal entity closed to something official that we have. So asking them to deliver a letter just feels normal. Sure I can do it, if such a proposal was created and passed. But it would be more official if coming from an elected official.

Time to face the music. Evan doesn't care. He no longer even has access to his own reddit account that owns /r/dashpay. Even if Evan wanted to, he would be unable to do anything. On top of that he does not ever interact with the community anymore and DashLabs looks completely dead. It is well past due to write him off. Fact: Tungfa is the highest ranked moderator on /r/dashpay who can even login to reddit and that makes him the one with the responsibility to make this decision.

I still do not think that a question about demoting a Reddit moderator, should be done through the DAO.
Polling the whole Dash network should be about much more important topics.

This topic can easily be polled on the Dash.org/forum (you can easily create a thread with a poll option there) or on the Dash discord forum.

Interesting answer, thanks. As a MNO I would agree that this might not be the right place to rise the issue, but I also agree with DashUnicorn that the forum is not the right place either.
We need something else...

I agree totally.

This topic was already raised on dash.org/forum. No action was taken, tungfa attempted to lock the thread, and basilpop is still going wild over a year later http://archive.is/qQtMO

That was not a poll, got highly personal and turned out to be more related to either rule 5 : ''No passing of unproven speculation/claims as fact'' or any of the other 8 rules, which all dash reddit moderators need to uphold.

Dash/org/forum has the option to create polls in threads as well.

No one is going to take a dash.org forum poll seriously. People are not even taking this proposal seriously so what would that say about the legitimacy of a forum poll where anybody can create a hundred sock puppets and vote? At least this one is forced to be only masternodes.
Also that forum post might have been personal but there was nothing unproven. All examples were fully sourced. Did you read through it?

This proposal is ambiguous. If it gets a lot of YES votes and "passes", Basilpop gets to keep his job and you, the person who wants Basilpop to get fired, gets rewarded with 5 Dash. ?? If you wanted it to be clear cut, you would have phrased it in exactly the opposite manner. I don't know if this is just sloppy or intentional on your part. Plus, the DAO doesn't run any of the forums, so in no way would this be authoritative even if it were not ambiguous.

I have been openly critical of Basilpop on more than one occasion, so I am not just sticking up for Basilpop. I would also point out that he has made enormous strides in his deportment on the public forums.

On top of that, your other proposal is similarly strange in that it claims to be a governance question, but asks for more than 5 Dash if it passes. That has never happened before. What's up with that?? So, in both cases I'm just going to have to abstain until the ambiguity and weirdness goes away.

Solarguy

There is nothing ambiguous about this proposal.

"Should Macrochip/Basilpop continue to be a moderator for r/dashpay?"
YES/NO/ABSTAIN.

Sure it is. If I want Macro to keep his job, I have to give you 5 Dash. I don't want to do that.

Putting this proposal in where "No" somehow means both "don't fund" and also "support your point", renders this vote basically meaningless. If you had actually wanted this to carry any weight at all you would have arranged it such that "Yes" (hence, funding) is actually aligned with your intended outcome, not the opposite. Thanks for your 5 dash donation

This is a fair proposal imo. By convention, governance proposals ask for 5 Dash to cover the proposal fee. It doesn't really matter whether the vote goes YES or NO, the PO already paid 5 Dash to launch this vote so won't profit from the result either way.

The way this proposal has been setup has nothing to do with fairness. The primary role of Masternode owners inside the Dash governance model is allocation of Dash funding (including proposal fees). This proposal directly clashes with that primary role, by the way it has been setup. Which means it already obscures the voting outcome from the start and is one of the reasons it is not valid as a poll.

Another reason is that the network should not be polled about personal issues one person has with another person. If this does happen (like in this situation), then this should be discouraged by denying funding for the proposal fee.

"Should Macrochip/Basilpop continue to be a moderator for r/dashpay?:
Vote Yes, No, or Abstain. Proposal is for 5 DASH and I paid 5 DASH for it. Why is it meaningless?

Because taking the position AGAINST yours involves potentially awarding you 5 dash. Do you not see how this is at odds? It's a fundamentally flawed proposal.

I don't want to earn any Dash. What part of a simple YES/NO question you do not understand?

Why should we vote to reimburse your 5 dash if we disagree with you on the proposal?
If you really want to capture MNO sentiment, then put in another proposal where YES = Change the status quo. There is precedent for this in our governance history, and it is common sense to align the funding reimbursement with the change request.

I suspect that the reason you didn't frame it correctly is because of the possibility of something like this happening.
https://www.dashcentral.org/p/demote-ryan-taylor-to-an-advisory-role
That is just my own speculation :)

My god TroyDash. Do you want me to send 5 DASH $300 to Dash Watch to put on escrow?

As I mentioned on the other proposal, I don't think there is anything you can do at this point that can salvage this proposal to make the outcome legitimate. In my view, the only way to do an accurate poll of the MNs is if the vote to change is in the affirmative. In any case, I won't continue to overwhelm your proposal with comments here, as I am sure there are many others who would like a say as well :)

The funding has nothing to do with the question. You're trying to protect Fernando and Macrochip but you'll just end up exposing problems with the governance. I only want a new CMO and a better moderator. Can't you just vote the question?

voting NO. I wish voting was always this easy!
Macrochip/Basilpop has an incredible wealth of knowledge in regards to Dash.
I would lose my cool every now and then, if I was in Macrochip's position. Dealing with starry eyed idealists and fools who soak up the plentiful lies and propaganda from the likes of Charlie Lee, Monero trolls or Coindesk is no easy task.

For clarity: I voted No to funding this proposal only (maybe this vote not so easy, with the confusion here and there!). I am happy for Macrochip/Basilpop to retain any current moderator positions.

Q.E.D.

I have a feeling Dashcrypto = realist = pos/pow (piece of $hit/piece of work)

Hehe good one ? abstain is best to do imo ?

Basilpop rocks. voting no to ensure this proposal is not funded. Come on realist, seriously.....

remember , this is a trick question ! “do u want balsi to stay?” so vote YES (for him to stay)

The thing is, he really shouldn't saty. Basilpop is about the worst figurehead Dash can have in public forums.

sorry correction - vote ABSTAIN and let this die (do not give him a voice or decision )

Instead of voting funding abstain, vote "delete yes" instead. You can vote to delete it from memory.

Interesting, I think I will ask rango from Dash Central if that option can possibly be integrated into Dash Central.

The word you're looking for is "tricky" Tungfa.
"Should Macrochip/Basilpop continue to be a moderator for r/dashpay?"
Yes, No, Abstain.
It's only tricky for you because you don't have basic english skills.

The phrase "trick question" is fine:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/trick%20question

If you want to be taken even half seriously, and have Basilpop removed for talking shit about others, don't go down the same road and talk shit about peoples' English skills. Especially not when you're wrong.

i chose “trick” on purpose over “tricky” (thank u very much)

From now on i'm voting NO to any proposal coming from you. I'm not giving you any Dash funds, period !!

These kind of proposals are unappropriate and unacceptable as polling proposals and are a big waste of masternode owners time and only created to spread FUD or a desperate attempt to drive the Dash community apart.

oh, and thank you for the 5 Dash.

do NoT give him a voice or decision , ABSTAIN and let this die !

"Let this die" I say!

pls do not not tell me how to vote ! I dont regonice this as a polling proposal and i'm voting specifically NO to deny funds to this person.

relax - i am suggesting ONLY ; )

Congrats. You win the Dash dickhead of the month award.

Enjoy!

Walter

Walter, this comment really wins you the award

Thanks Walter! I'm glad to receive a comment from the Supervisor of the Dash Investment Foundation. I'm archiving this to show how people are treated when they put Governance proposals for Dash.

You’re welcome! You earned it.

Walter

LOL, still alphabetical, N O, No.

Notice how many people are trying to discredit this proposal, but not a single one is willing to put $300 to ask the questions in the format they're accusing me of not following.

I only wanted a better CMO and Reddit moderator, there was no need for so many of you to attack me personally. You have called me a dickhead, said my proposal was ridiculous and meaningless, asked if I was dropped in my head as a child, said that I'm making a bullshit story, accused me of bing a scammer, and also called me a piece of shit and moron in your chat room.

You are not good people. This is circulating on Twitter and will likely be news in a few days and will cause millions in losses.

share with us the tweets, i want to retweet so everyone around the world can laugh at you

No, he shouldn't.
Let be honest, guys: marketing and all kinds of PR is the weasek part of Dash. We have to do smth. Firing the folks who have been failing everything for years is a good first step.

I totally agree! We ( my team) raised the issue a year ago. I told the Community that Dash didn’t have a strong marketing concept. 2019 now. Dash hasn’t got any clear strategy so far. That is so sad. Fernando does nothing to do something worth! Moreover, he hasn’t keep his promises.

Oh, I see now how this proposal made. It's designed to confuse. Trolling, obviously. Too sad. Will re-vote then. However, we still need changes.

I urge every MNO thats commenting, to atleast consider not reducing themselves to this low level comments and insults.. and ad hominem attacks

I ask that you all please maintain a professional image for and behalf of the dao so that way external users that may want to peak into the inner workings of the dao are not exposed toxic environment from historical proposals

I think it's too late for that, but thanks!

Polling proposals are only to be issued when clarity is needed for the network as a whole, when its unclear on which direction to go and when its important to understand how a majority of the longterm investors think about certain matters (higher blocksize, changing important protocol etc).

Polling proposals are not proposals that are just issued because 1 person has a personal beef with someone else. Such a proposal will not be regnoniced as a polling proposal and revert back to a simple funding proposal. The proposal in question then only gets funded or not.

The word you're looking for is "recognized".

What's unclear about this question?
Should Macrochip/Basilpop continue to be a moderator for r/dashpay?

Why isn't this a pooling proposal, and who are you do decide whether it is or isn't? I paid the fee, and you can vote YES, NO or ABSTAIN. My only intention is to get a better CMO and Moderator, please don't make me doubt the whole governance system.

Anyone can create a budget proposal for 5 Dash, give it a title ending with a questionmark and then put his own favourable terms / conditions to it and call it a polling proposal or pooling proposal or whatever you want to call it. However it is still the masternode owners that get to decide how to allocate the available Dash budget. Since the proposal fees are still part of that unallocated budget, it is up to each masternode owner to decide if they want to allocate it on a polling proposal fee or if they want to allocate it on a actual budget proposal. This will depends on the polling proposal itself and how important it is to the whole Dash network.

I decided that the Dash proposal fees for both this proposal and your other proposal (together 20 Dash), is far better allocated towards budget proposals that put actual value to the network.

Which means i vote NO to free those proposal fees (20 Dash) up for actual budget proposals.
This means that masternode owners voting options (yes, no, abtain) can overrule any voting conditions / favourable terms in these proposals.

I don't care about the funding, I only care about the question.

Thats the difference between us, you care about your question and i care about the allocation of Dash funds.

Maybe you should have put your question somewhere else. Maybe you should have made your poll on dash.org

In a situation like this one could consider just voting ABSTAIN, as to not play into the cards of the proposal creator, but personally i just think this topic on itself invalidate it as a polling proposal.

There is nothing invalid about a question and ABSTAIN is a valid vote! Well done!

After reading all the comments it is pretty obvious this polling proposal is lacking support among masternode owners for its polling part, and is therefore invalid as a poll.