Proposal description
Gold for Dash: Vaultoro Exchange to implement DASH.
The biggest physical gold/bitcoin-Exchange of the world (operated in UK and Germany with storage in Switzerland) is looking for diversification into other cryptos -and with the help of this proposal DASH will become the first bitcoin alternative to be implemented!
Link to the pre-proposal:
https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/pre-proposal-vaultoro-to-implement-dash.37961/
1. Who is Vaultoro?
Vaultoro (http://www.vaultoro.com) was the first exchange to offer a bitcoin/physical allocated gold trading pair more than 3 years ago, so users would never have to go back to fiat for hedging volatility.Vaultoro has been working towards its vision of developing the world’s biggest asset-based security solution. The goal is to create a fair, global financial system for everyone. Vaultoro wants to enable everyone to easily and quickly manage their physical and digital assets such as gold, silver and currently bitcoin. It is ready for the unbanked, for people in countries where government has destroyed its own money, for conservative goldbugs all over the world, for libertarians and for all who need a civilized safe haven where you have law enforcement and property rights guaranteed. Vaultoro creates technical solutions by which customers can use their physical gold as a means of payment. Our products include Vaultoro Trading, the world’s first real-time trading platform for gold and bitcoin, as well as Bar9, the gold savings account. Right now more than 0.5 tons of gold ($23,245,757) are being vaulted (https://audit.vaultoro.com) and 1.8 tons of gold (approx. $76.500.000) have been traded via Vaultoro. The quantity of gold traded is increasing every month. The head offices are located in Berlin and London, their vault is located in the freeport “Zollfreilager Embrach” Switzerland The company currently has more than 12,000 customers from 94 countries.Vaultoro also has pioneered exchange transparency developing the glass books protocol to become the most transparent exchange in the world while keeping client data absolutely private.
2. Purpose of this proposal?
We are seeking to integrate DASH in an existing and working crypto-gold exchange, not only to bring DASH to our 12,000+ users from 94 countries but also to make our gold and general commodities community aware of DASH’s advantages and user friendly features.
3. What’s in it for DASH?
We will list DASH/Gold and DASH/BTC trading pairs on Vaultoro.com and thereby create thousands of DASH wallets for our users and our platform. By doing so, we reach out to the gold community: Implementing a commodities-DASH-Exchange with Vaultoro means giving DASH a whole new application and opening a whole new market: with new sources of borderless international wealth transfer and fiat independency. Being the first cryptocurrency (after bitcoin) to become directly interchangeable with physical gold means: DASH is getting the opportunity to have a price discovery system based on hard assets and not just fiat. DASH will become more independent from fiat money and will thereby become more resilient to state regulation and fiat speculation. This means less volatility, more traffic and thereby more value.
4. What do we ask for?
5. Win Win Situation
Vaultoro is critical not only for DASH but also for the gold industry as a whole. For it could help dampen the volatility for DASH and gold price bya) increasing traffic from DASH to gold and vice versa,b) opening the way for a whole new community: the so called goldbugs (= $Billion Industry) to get the most modern way of direct payment without middlemen and the danger of losing control of their asset.c) opening a fiat money independant source of value transfer, that is not dependant on highly speculative money created at will from central banks (with their bazooka policies) and affiliated speculative investors but is always backed by the asset that no other can equal with its unmatched high and stable stock to flow ratio but a very great, wealthy and conservative flock that adheres to the values only DASH can provide.The difficulty is most of them just do not know it yet, although more and more goldbug opinion leaders side with the libertarian crypto crowd. In fact, both groups have many overlapping interests.d) offering a transparent order book, visible to all participants, reduces the risk of price manipulation, yet not giving detailed information on the user himself (open market competition vs spot price dictated by 5 big players)This is a great opportunity to offer a customer experience that is completely bank independent. The gold industry is a multi-billion dollar market. Although many of the vaults are located in secure legislations, they cannot liquidate or transfer values easily. However, with the service of Vaultoro they can. Most of them have to use bank wire transfers, which comes down to state controlled middlemen.Since gold is stored in a secure surrounding - being different from legal-tender currencies - it has evolved over 6000 years to become THE default value asset (surviving even solar flares, wars and government shutdowns, - defaults, confiscation and prohibition sprees), keeps away exceedingly hazardous third parties, like burglars and confiscators or the banking systems henchmen that do not respect private property.Higher traffic, lower volatility, a true usecase and gold as backing means even higher value for Dash.The role that the “petro-Dollar” had for oil, namely to be the dominating and outstanding currency for one asset could well become DASHs role for gold after adoption in this proposal, considering all its qualities and its possible edge in competition and first mover advantage.We are looking forward to a successful cooperation with DASH. Please let us know about your views on this proposal. You are more than welcome to leave questions, opinions and suggestion on this proposal.
---
Who am I?
My name is Moritz Kajdi, I am currently studying business economics at the University of Greifswald, Germany. I am a supporter of the Austrian School of Economics and therefore also a big fan of DASH and gold. I have written two articles (article 1, article 2) about cryptocurrencies in German that have gained much attention. I have also held a lecture on crytocurrencies at the University of Greifswald, Germany as part of a lecture series hosted by the Bundesverband deutscher Börsenvereine.
The biggest physical gold/bitcoin-Exchange of the world (operated in UK and Germany with storage in Switzerland) is looking for diversification into other cryptos -and with the help of this proposal DASH will become the first bitcoin alternative to be implemented!
Link to the pre-proposal:
https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/pre-proposal-vaultoro-to-implement-dash.37961/
1. Who is Vaultoro?
Vaultoro (http://www.vaultoro.com) was the first exchange to offer a bitcoin/physical allocated gold trading pair more than 3 years ago, so users would never have to go back to fiat for hedging volatility.Vaultoro has been working towards its vision of developing the world’s biggest asset-based security solution. The goal is to create a fair, global financial system for everyone. Vaultoro wants to enable everyone to easily and quickly manage their physical and digital assets such as gold, silver and currently bitcoin. It is ready for the unbanked, for people in countries where government has destroyed its own money, for conservative goldbugs all over the world, for libertarians and for all who need a civilized safe haven where you have law enforcement and property rights guaranteed. Vaultoro creates technical solutions by which customers can use their physical gold as a means of payment. Our products include Vaultoro Trading, the world’s first real-time trading platform for gold and bitcoin, as well as Bar9, the gold savings account. Right now more than 0.5 tons of gold ($23,245,757) are being vaulted (https://audit.vaultoro.com) and 1.8 tons of gold (approx. $76.500.000) have been traded via Vaultoro. The quantity of gold traded is increasing every month. The head offices are located in Berlin and London, their vault is located in the freeport “Zollfreilager Embrach” Switzerland The company currently has more than 12,000 customers from 94 countries.Vaultoro also has pioneered exchange transparency developing the glass books protocol to become the most transparent exchange in the world while keeping client data absolutely private.
2. Purpose of this proposal?
We are seeking to integrate DASH in an existing and working crypto-gold exchange, not only to bring DASH to our 12,000+ users from 94 countries but also to make our gold and general commodities community aware of DASH’s advantages and user friendly features.
3. What’s in it for DASH?
We will list DASH/Gold and DASH/BTC trading pairs on Vaultoro.com and thereby create thousands of DASH wallets for our users and our platform. By doing so, we reach out to the gold community: Implementing a commodities-DASH-Exchange with Vaultoro means giving DASH a whole new application and opening a whole new market: with new sources of borderless international wealth transfer and fiat independency. Being the first cryptocurrency (after bitcoin) to become directly interchangeable with physical gold means: DASH is getting the opportunity to have a price discovery system based on hard assets and not just fiat. DASH will become more independent from fiat money and will thereby become more resilient to state regulation and fiat speculation. This means less volatility, more traffic and thereby more value.
4. What do we ask for?
- 35 DASH per month for technical development in order to integrate and maintain the new trading pairs & platforms
- 8 DASH per month for project management
- 4 DASH per month for accounting
- 5 DASH per month for legal consultancy
- 5 DASH per month for content marketing
- 2 DASH per month for travel expenses
- 5 DASH reimbursement for the proposal cost
5. Win Win Situation
Vaultoro is critical not only for DASH but also for the gold industry as a whole. For it could help dampen the volatility for DASH and gold price bya) increasing traffic from DASH to gold and vice versa,b) opening the way for a whole new community: the so called goldbugs (= $Billion Industry) to get the most modern way of direct payment without middlemen and the danger of losing control of their asset.c) opening a fiat money independant source of value transfer, that is not dependant on highly speculative money created at will from central banks (with their bazooka policies) and affiliated speculative investors but is always backed by the asset that no other can equal with its unmatched high and stable stock to flow ratio but a very great, wealthy and conservative flock that adheres to the values only DASH can provide.The difficulty is most of them just do not know it yet, although more and more goldbug opinion leaders side with the libertarian crypto crowd. In fact, both groups have many overlapping interests.d) offering a transparent order book, visible to all participants, reduces the risk of price manipulation, yet not giving detailed information on the user himself (open market competition vs spot price dictated by 5 big players)This is a great opportunity to offer a customer experience that is completely bank independent. The gold industry is a multi-billion dollar market. Although many of the vaults are located in secure legislations, they cannot liquidate or transfer values easily. However, with the service of Vaultoro they can. Most of them have to use bank wire transfers, which comes down to state controlled middlemen.Since gold is stored in a secure surrounding - being different from legal-tender currencies - it has evolved over 6000 years to become THE default value asset (surviving even solar flares, wars and government shutdowns, - defaults, confiscation and prohibition sprees), keeps away exceedingly hazardous third parties, like burglars and confiscators or the banking systems henchmen that do not respect private property.Higher traffic, lower volatility, a true usecase and gold as backing means even higher value for Dash.The role that the “petro-Dollar” had for oil, namely to be the dominating and outstanding currency for one asset could well become DASHs role for gold after adoption in this proposal, considering all its qualities and its possible edge in competition and first mover advantage.We are looking forward to a successful cooperation with DASH. Please let us know about your views on this proposal. You are more than welcome to leave questions, opinions and suggestion on this proposal.
---
Who am I?
My name is Moritz Kajdi, I am currently studying business economics at the University of Greifswald, Germany. I am a supporter of the Austrian School of Economics and therefore also a big fan of DASH and gold. I have written two articles (article 1, article 2) about cryptocurrencies in German that have gained much attention. I have also held a lecture on crytocurrencies at the University of Greifswald, Germany as part of a lecture series hosted by the Bundesverband deutscher Börsenvereine.
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Discussion: Should we fund this proposal?
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The competition for the title of "better money" Part 1-3
Part 1: Bitcoin & DASH - the raptors are loose!
https://steemit.com/cryptocurrency/@dashionalist/dash-and-bitcoin-compete-for-the-title-of-better-money
Part 2: The sensual charm of DASH, Bitcoin & CO
https://steemit.com/dash/@dashionalist/the-competition-for-the-title-of-better-money-part-2
Part 3: How the suicide of the state monetary system fuels cryptocurrencies
https://steemit.com/dash/@dashionalist/the-competition-for-the-title-of-better-money-part-3
Vaultoro to implement DASH by MoKa
https://dashwatch.org/files/1532796201681.pdf
Yeesh.
Vaultoro to implement DASH by MoKa
https://dashwatch.org/files/1530054149497.pdf
So far we had several jobintervies with developers. We hope to have found an additional dev for the job and look forward to welcoming him to the Vaultoro team ASAP. His task will be the sole work on the DASH / Gold pair.
Press announcements here:
https://www.cryptoninjas.net/2018/06/04/dash-dao-invests-in-vaultoro-to-implement-dash-on-gold-exchange/
http://www.mytradecryptocurrency.com/dash-dao-invests-in-vaultoro-to-implement-dash-on-gold-exchange/
https://btc-investor.net/dash-dao-invests-in-vaultoro-to-implement-dash-on-gold-exchange-2/
https://bitcoinexchangeguide.com/vaultoro-gold-based-bitcoin-exchange-to-implement-dash-payments/
http://btcpost.net/index.php/bitcoin-news/748-dash-dao-invests-in-vaultoro-to-implement-dash-gold-pair
We appreciate the great support and trust you are putting in us and will work hard to justify it!
Sincerely,
Moritz
Just a few more votes puts this into the green.
solarguy
What you suggest is nothing less than that the clerk from the cloakroom (=Joshua) take al the intrusted cloaks(Dash) and start them lending out (put them into masternodes) because they “belong” to him.
I must admit that you are no brighter than the actual banking system- you have grown up with- that behaves like that and hopes to get away with it - as always in the past. The times when governments could just devalue their crap-currency, print new money, sit out the time till the public had to get used to it again and then start that ponzi scheme all over is over now!
With this proposal (VAULTORO COMBINED WITH DASH) becoming reality the poor people in bankrupt countries who want to get rid of their government and its life choking bad money can ultimately install AN HONEST AND TRANSPARENT PIVATE Money-SYSTEM themselves no cloakroom clerk can tamper with . With the advent of DASHs interchangeability with physical gold IT IS THE FIRST TIME IN HUMAN HISTORY that these people can chose a gold backed private money - something the late nobelprice winner Hayek has propagated. THIS IS A REVOLUTION that becomes reality if the time frame of opportunity is long enough for MASS ADOPTION. The sooner we start the better- because those who sit in the driving seats of actual money-power will do everything they can to shorten this time window!
http://www.acting-man.com/blog/media/2018/05/In-Gold-we-Trust-2018-Extended-version-english.pdf
Regardless, Vaultoro played you and all the other Yes votes; they were going to add dash anyway. Allow me to quote from this very page:
"DASH must not fear competition, it is one of the best crytpo currencies out there and does not need to fear competiton"
"DASH has everything in place to BE the best currency in the world"
"DASH is digital cash, that fits our business model the most."
You see that, it's not a choice of IF they add dash, for it has no competition, it is in the best fit in their multi-asset expansion:
"Our research has shown that withholding other currencies is not the best thing for Bitcoin or now for DASH, as people want options."
How do you think Bar9's euros to gold came about if they didn't want to give customers options?
OTOH...
"there is absolutely no plan to add ANY OTHER CRYPTO/GOLD pair except for DASH & bitcoin unless it’s paid for".
Oh, the dichotomy; giving customers options but only if those options buy themselves in. Nevermind dash being one of the best, or fitting their business model the most. No no, it's okay for Vaultoro to run the argument both ways, right?
Bottom line; this wasn't funding a startup or someone strapped for cash. Simply put, they bagged themselves a freebie, and you have the cheek to say it's me that's clueless.
Although they make this proposal because they need financing you alone know it better: they “pretend”- they need be financed-
OK?
So in the future we should just sponsor people who hate us and say from themselves that they dont need us?
What kind of logic is this?
Gold “stolen by government” as you claim would imply that you must be either a member of a child porno-ring, drug dealer, terrorist or a another type of thug, because normal citizens did not get stolen- they got their money back (5 years later). Since you are probably not writing from jail i think you are putting up stories to make yourself more interesting and in order to stay in the center of attention.
Guess how much that cost the treasury. . .
The main difference is that bitgold (goldmoney) is a quote-driven market. Whereas vaultoro is order-driven, meaning we run an orderbook to ensure there is a free-market competition for the customer.
If you were to hold hold a large position of gold on bitgold/goldmoney and you wanted to liquidate this asset, they could potentially have a really massive buy-back-price, since they are the ONLY counterparty to settle trades with, thereby forcing their price upon you.
With vaultoro you'll always get the fair-market-price as we offer a public orderbook of thousands of buyers and sellers.
The other thing with bitgold is: as far as I know you can only buy with crypto in one location (Dubai), but you can't sell your gold back to crypto.
The only option to liquidate is to get back FIAT at their price.
So basically: the service provided by bitgold/goldmoney is restricted to people with a bankaccount.
They also don't have a transperancy-protocol like we do.
Open ledger seems to be a “sleeping exchange”. Last order of gold as I see it was in october 2017 (see https://cryptofresh.com/a/OPEN.DASH_GOLD) .
I certainly miss alot of point on this propsal, or do you change last minute the text ?
Sorry if its only me, looks like the text is cut.
Where is the preproposal link ?
Do you have an escrow ?
Do you signe an exclusivity arangement, if yes, for how many time, and with who ?
Who are you ? (controle of identity yet done by some one in community ?)
Does DAO win shareolder or Gold stock with this proposal ?
Regards,
Have you tried to push “Show full description” button at the top?
>Where is the preproposal link ?
Thanks you for mentioning that, I just put the link in the description right below the video aswell.
https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/pre-proposal-vaultoro-to-implement-dash.37961/#post-188290
>Do you have an escrow ?
No, we do not. I got in touch with core and figured out that the time to set up an escrow agreement would have pushed us into the next cycle. Since we want to start developing ASAP we chose to propose in this cycle in order to be able to finally start by the beginning of june.
>Who are you ? (controle of identity yet done by some one in community ?)
See section “Who is Vaultoro?” and “Who am I?” in the full proposal text and see answer to @Macrochip further below https://twitter.com/Vaultoro/status/999315037788483584
>Does DAO win shareolder or Gold stock with this proposal ?
No, DAO gains new utilities of a working real world application (Vaultoro) that caters for a multibillion dollar business and is the main source for value adding. To generate higher demand, higher turnover, higher market share and market cap.
>Do you sign an exclusivity arangement, if yes, for how many time, and with who ?
We guarantee 4 month no other crypto plus 3 months guaranteed Dash exlusivity MINIMUM = 7 months, from now (See answer to @Ancestor and lot of discussion below!)
Message from Joshua Scigala, the CEO of Vaultoro:
*Hi to fellow DASH lovers. We offer something far more important, reputation. We want to do far more with Dash and would love in the future to work with the community further.
People like Charlie Shrem are fools and terrible business people as they scam great communities like this one out of Dash for a one-time payment but the full loss of trust and respect.
I used to work for one of Australia’s richest people, the late Kerry Packer, at channel 9. When I had a meeting with him once I asked him how he got so successful. He said, "Josh, I like to attribute much of my success to the fact that people know they can count on my handshake. When I do a deal I stick to it even without a signature, over time people notice this. Even if I realise that it was a bad deal, I would follow through as my word is more important than anything else in the business."
I have always lived by that advice and really appreciated those wise words.
So yeah, we may not have a counterparty to sign with but in my past, I have always been an honourable businessman and would never want to taint that reputation.*
Seriously? You don’t want this proposal to pass because you don’t need vaultoro yourself. Think about it this way:
1. Probably many gold-buyers don’t need a gold-vaulting facility like vaultoro because:
a) they live in a legislation where gold-ownership is allowed,
b) they might have a safe place where to put it physically and
c) don’t want to pay for secure outside storage
BUT there’s a huge bunch of people on this planet do who don’t have a)+b)+c) !!!!!
2. even more important: gold-buyers/sellers need gold-merchants all around the world who can offer/buy physical gold for dash. This is possible only if those gold-merchants get the hedging tools that are offered by a platform like Vaultore (i.e. instant exchange dash / physical gold to allow them to do business in Dash without losing money in a volatile cryptomarket).
So even those who don’t use Vaultoro directly profit greatly from the new utility vaultoro offers for the whole gold- and dash- community.
3. If I only voted for proposals with business models I use myself today, I would not vote for phantastic things like ALT36 (because I don’t need marihuana), for Vaultoro (because I don’t need a vault) or even DASH ITSELF because i can buy far more things with FIAT right now!
Unfortunately you can’t hide your lack of real arguments.
You seem autistically detached from the whole discussion, celebrating the one-man-show you’re offering to the readers of this thread….
If you can’t address all the arguments several people have put forward, nothing is left for you but to continue your one-trick-pony performance, driveling false assertions and insinuations on a personal level.
There’s no reason for anyone to pay attention to this repetition of envy and personal resentment anymore
Or perhaps, I set a perfectly plausible scenario...
If no one else you at least should care of what you write!
….and running a masternode is dangerous because it could HARM the dash community????????
Really???
You fear to have to share your continually falling masternode dash income (with a built-in minus of 7,1 % per year) with profit making Vaultoro? You insinuate that Vaultoro uses its profits to switch its business model and dilute your income as any other masternode new-comer?
Has it ever occured to you that the value of Dash derives not primarily from its scarcity (freezing Dash into masternodes or limit its emission to 22 Mio.) but from an increasing portfolio of utilities? You have to present utilities that outdo our main competitors which by the way are FIAT moneys, not so much other altcoins!
And have you not read that the proposed business model of Vaultoro is to offer A WHOLE NEW SET of UTILITIES for the multibillion gold industry.
We speak about DIRECT exchange of PHYSICAL gold into Dash:
Helping local gold-merchants all over the planet to HEDGE THEIR VOLATILITY EXPOSURE with dash - a PREQUISIT FOR DOING BUSINESS IN DASH at all. Reintroducing cash functionality in a privacy-sensitive market with digital cash (=Dash). Alleviating KYC and AML compliance.
These are THE REAL BENEFITS for Dash!
They generate higher demand, higher turnover, higher market share, market cap and higher revenue for dash masternodes. In the long run these are the ONLY MECHANISMS YOU CAN HOPE FOR in order to more than compensate the ever falling masternode-Dash-earning-curve.
To keep ones own shares scarce is a very short sighted strategy to prop up the price (not value!) and get a better yearly gratification. But it does nothing to enhance the real value of a company. It’s kind of a leveraging game that pays back negatively in the long run.
If you are a manager of a stock company who has no shares himself, price management makes sense only to recklessly generate higher gratifications for yourself. Yet the shareholders pay the price for it! But if you were a shareholder yourself (i.e. masternode owner like you) following such a strategy you’d outsmart yourself and you would have to pay leverage for it yourself - in a leveraged way.
With your “perfectly plausible scenario” - based on fearful insinuation - not just harming yourself but all dash users, too.
If you want to secure a higher payout, for yourself and the dash community, reverse your no-vote!
The fact is, for Vaultoro, holding dash in reserve is different to holding bitcoin; one generates income, the other doesn't. With this in mind, I am saying Vaultoro could be giving dash users more benefit than bitcoin users. He doesn't have to, you're right, he's perfectly entitled to crowd-fund the dash and keep all the dash rewards generated for himself. In the same way, he's perfectly entitled to continue charging dash users the same transaction fees and storage fees as his bitcoin users, even they give him zero rewards.
Keep in mind, Vaultoro is not operating in the same way of a traditional exchange e.g. no inter-exchange transfers. I'm sure Joshua himself would be happy to talk about the differences.
https://www.finlab.de/index.php?id=2
"Das Investment von FinLab nutzt Vaultoro für den Ausbau seiner Produkte zu Multi-Asset-Plattformen. Weitere Edelmetalle wie Silber, Platin und Palladium sowie (Krypto-)Währungen wie Bitcoin oder Ethereum sollen über alle Produkte hinweg integriert werden."
Translated:
"FinLab's investment leverages Vaultoro to grow its products into multi-asset platforms. Other precious metals such as silver, platinum and palladium as well as (crypto) currencies such as Bitcoin or Ethereum should be integrated across all products."
In return, what does FinLab get from Vaultoro? They made the deal with no timeline?
I am glad to read, you found out for yourself what others have been telling you for several days now: namely that insinuations claiming DASH implementation pays where others are free are just not true.
The only way we would support ethereum at this stage is to implement an ethereum / DASH pair.
Finlab was referring to crypto-to-crypto pairs.
Remember: Finlab is NOT vaultoro and is not pushing us for unreasonable new features.
DASH is digital cash, that fits our business model the most.
Kind regards,
Moritz
Facts are:
1. Dash pays rewards.
2. You will be keeping 90% dash in cold storage. You have not confirmed or denied that Vaultoro will be using dash reserves in masternodes / masternode shares.
3. Documented by FinLab that you have full intention to be multi-asset, including Ethereum.
4. You have not disclosed your financial arrangements with FinLab as it pertains to your planned multi-asset integration. How can we be sure you are not getting paid twice for the same work?
5. Vaultoro allows people to cash out using Bitcoin Cash, therefore somewhat disingenuous / misleading to suggest that dash will be the first alt after bitcoin. Perhaps from crypto-to-gold but your intentions have been clearly made.
You and your buddies will almost certainly continue to vote down verifiable facts. And you will no doubt continue to cherry pick which comments you answer to. But let me make this ABSOLUTELY CLEAR - I hope you and me don't cross paths in real life.
To finally answer your questions:
> 1. Dash pays rewards.
This is right, but most people using it as a payment method. Those people will be happy to be able to purchase gold from others using DASH without having to pay merchant-spreads.
> 2. You will be keeping 90% dash in cold storage. You have not confirmed or denied that Vaultoro will be using dash reserves in masternodes / masternode shares.
We will not be using it for any masternode shares whatsoever because it’s simply not part of our business model. We’ve talked about this in several meetings and came to the conclusion that if there were any masternode-shares, the reward would directly go to the customers themselves using DASH.
> 3. Documented by FinLab that you have full intention to be multi-asset, including Ethereum.
FinLab is NOT Vaultoro
> 4. You have not disclosed your financial arrangements with FinLab as it pertains to your planned multi-asset integration. How can we be sure you are not getting paid twice for the same work?
FinLab is looking forward on us enhancing the platform.
>5. Vaultoro allows people to cash out using Bitcoin Cash, therefore somewhat disingenuous / misleading to suggest that dash will be the first alt after bitcoin. Perhaps from crypto-to-gold but your intentions have been clearly made.
This is simply not true and I personally think you know it. There is no possibility whatsoever to liquidate any gold or bitcoin into bitcoin-cash.
As mentioned before: You might remember that there was a bitcoin fork, in August 2017, where our customers, that all had bitcoin-wallets at that time, expected us to provide them with THEIR bitcoin-cash airdrop that belonged to them and not to us.
The method to withdraw is for funds that have been in their account at the time of the hard-fork - and for those only!
> “I hope you and me don't cross paths in real life.”
I actually hope we will, so we can settle this argument and any personal resentments you have towards Vaultoro or me. Really looking forward to it. You have put a huge effort in downgrading this proposal and twisting / mixing facts in order to prevent this proposal from passing without even bringing forward one single argument that had not been taken into consideration before. I want to personally thank you for this because it gave me the opportunity to roll out my arguments in favour of this proposal.
Kind regards,
Moritz
There is absolutely not reason not to!
Gold “stolen by government” as you claim would imply that you must be either a member of a child porno-ring, drug dealer, terrorist or a another type of thug, because normal citizens did not get stolen- they got their money back (5 years later). Since you are probably not writing from jail i think you are putting up stories to make yourself more interesting in order to stay in the center of attention.
I think I'm done here, really. Now I'm a terrorist or a thug or a straight-up liar. It actually doesn't matter what I say, you've got all the answers.
Goodbye.
...though you can also withdraw to Bitcoin Cash, right?
https://blog.vaultoro.com/2017/11/20/bitcoin-cash-update/
Just wondering how much you was paid to do that?
You might remember that there was a Bitcoin fork, in August 2017, where our customers, that all had Bitcoin-wallets at that time, expected us to provide them with THEIR bitcoin-cash airdrop that belonged to them and not to us.
You would be right to criticize us if we kept their money. Now you criticize us because they got their money.
By the way it helps to read the page you are citing “We are happy to announce Bitcoin Cash withdrawals on Vaultoro.”
But with bitcoin-cash you still can’t buy directly gold on the vaultoro exchange. You have either to go to shapeshift to change it for bitcoin and then to gold - or if this proposal passes - to DASH to get your gold.
Remember the “petro-dollar argument”? - We would be glad if you voted YES now!
We are looking forward to cooperate with DASH community members that act rationally and economically and we love the cool DAO governance system of DASH where forks become very much improbable.
But yes, I realize you can't (yet) use Bitcoin Cash to buy gold.. is that really such a big step in your multi-asset timeline? But the point is, you made zero mention of Bitcoin Cash and Ethereum in your proposal, even if it just cashing out. But I can see why you'd do that.
solarguy
1. Investor hands over $100,000 to Vaultoro.
2. As per terms of service, Vaultoro puts 90% into cold storage; $90,000 = 281 dash
3. As quoted by Vaultoro, this purchase of gold will cost the user $385:
0.5% trading fees for the first 500g ~ $105
0.4% trading fees for the next kg ~ $167
0.3% for the remaining 900g ~ $113
4. Storage fees for one year is going to cost 0.4%; $400 = 1.25 dash
$100,000 x 0.004
5. For the user, total expenses for the first year is $785
$385 trading fee + $400 storage = 2.45 dash
6. For the user, total expenses for 5 years (excluding final exchange charges) is $2385
$785 + (4 x $400)
Meanwhile, Vaultoro uses his cold storage dash to earn rewards:
7. A masternode currently has an estimated payment of $61.69 per day.
http://178.254.23.111/~pub/Dash/Dash_Info.html
8. A masternode currently has an estimated annual payment of $22,516.85
$61.69 x 365 = $22,516.85 (70.42 dash)
9. The investor has given 281 dash to Vaultoro (see point 2). Therefore, Vaultoro's cold storage (masternodes or masternode shares) is earning them $6327.23 every year.
$22,516.85 * 0.281
10. Based on this single user investment, Vaultoro's profit for the first year will be $7112.23
$6327.23 + $785 (see points 5 and 9)
11. Based on this single user investment, Vaultoro's profit for 5 years will be $32,421.15
$6327.23 * 5 + $785
12. Vaultoro masternode income from user investment overshadows the user's trading fees and storage fees:
$6327.23 (see point 9) compared to $785 (see point 5)
One can argue, regardless of which side of the trade the user is on, they are swapping the volatility of dash with the stability of gold. It's their choice and I do not argue with this.
However, based on the numbers above, it seems to me, this is a very profitable venture for Vautoro with little downside. Surely such profitable venture should be funded from their own pocket. They cannot, after all, make such profits by exchanging bitcoin for gold.
Tank you for the answers.
Its a yes from me.
Good luck with this proposal.
Regards.
Three months is not necessarily the due date, but the minimum time we exclusively link DASH to gold.
We will certainly wait for any more gold pairs to even be announced until the DASH / Gold market has established itself with stable conversion rate. That is our main objective.
We think that exclusivity makes sense to give the market enough time to build.
However, withholding other crypto to crypto pairs in the long run could counteract the network effect from which DASH would benefit the most, as it will be the only gold pair alongside bitcoin.
To clarify the timeframe: There will be no further crypto / gold implementation for at least SEVEN (7) months. we will implement a DASH / gold pair within the next 4 months to then insure a DASH exclusivity for at least another 3 months.
We would love to promise longer but this is a wholly new exchange market that sometimes needs to pivot depending on market feedback. We don't want to make promises that we can’t keep. We think the DASH community has had too much of that crap.
Answer Yes there will be pairing with other cryptos but DASH will be the gatekeeper to gold for other cryptos with important network effects benefitting DASH:
1. enhance demand for DASH thereby taking the role the (petro)dollar had for oil
2. raise the price of DASH
3. lower volatility and raise price stability
From Vaultoro's transparency page, I can see they hold more than 473 bitcoin. Therefore, at least 425 bitcoins are held in cold storage. If the value of their dash holding ever matched bitcoin, they'd have more than 9,500 dash.
Of course, initially, their dash holdings would be much smaller, but given their 90% cold storage arrangements, it is easy to imagine them running a masternode or two; there is no logical explanation why they should not do so.
Vaultoro holding dash is to their advantage over bitcoin as bitcoin only gives rewards to miners, whereas dash shares it's rewards with masternode owners. How will said rewards be used? - a profit incentive over bitcoin, yet no added value to dash users? Will dash users get lower transaction costs or lower storage costs (or free)? Given that dash users are effectively crowd-funding masternodes for Vaultoro, should they receive benefits over bitcoin transactions?
If Vaultoro does not have enough dash to run a masternode, they can make arrangements with a masternode shares provider. Such scenario is possible, much the same as Vaultoro operate their gold through bailments (see terms of service). Thus it seems inevitable that Vaultoro can secure additional income through dash rewards, regardless of whether they have 1000 dash or not.
How much return would, say, $100,000 of dash give you? (masternode or masternode shares). I am going to suggest that the return would more than enough cover trading fees and storage fees. But instead, Joshua would have us believe, it's a good deal to hand over our dash in return for virtual gold. That is to say, your dash (now his) is the counter to the gold you now "own". So, while you're holding "gold", what is Joshua doing with his newly acquired dash? Seems to me, he could well be running masternodes (or masternode shares) and covering my trading fees and storage fees... I mean, why not??? But no no, he wants you to pay trading fees and storage fees, while raking in dash rewards. Nice one Josh.
Now dear Joshua tells us about his radical transparency and the independent auditors.. yep, he could do that with the dash he acquires and puts to use in those masternodes / masternode shares.
Totally voting NO.
The world's largest PRIVATE gold investors and hoarders come from India and Germany. In India people hold $ 1 Trillion and in Germany $ 378 Billion worth of gold. That is more than they own in stocks and far more than their governments have as gold reserves.
Prudent goldhoarders know very well that one day they need to liquidate their hoard. When governments devalue paper money all the time it always ends in a self-inflicted financial crisis. This is then called state bancruptcy. We are in the greatest global financial crisis the world has ever seen right now! We can watch states falling at an ever higher rate (Zimbabwe, Venezuela, India, Greece and Italy just to mention the recent ones). When governments lose control of their finances they react always in the same way.
Capital controls, more financial regulation, ban or confiscation of private assets (like gold & cryptos), taxes on import, nationalization of industries, "beggar thy neighbour"-policies, banning of cash (and nowadays cryptos)
But believe me this is just the beginning. Gold hoarders AND CRYPTO-OWNERS ALIKE WILL TRY EVERY AVAILABLE ESCAPEROUTE should kleptocracies decide to clamp down on them. We don't know who will be affected first, but probably it's not the gold owners. They have experienced and survived several thousand years of rogue states - states that did not respect private property! In the end even those states could not destroy gold as ultimate means of payment. Thats why they still call their own gold "reserves".
Vaultoro exchange is already in place for both sides , for gold- and crypto-adherents. It stands ready to exchange the oldest private value asset (gold) with the most modern digital cash. Provoding a smooth and direct way with highest speed, extreme divisibility, portability, fungibility, borderless transfer, guaranteed private control and without middlemen. The allocation of gold in Switzerland is particularly secure. In Switzerland property rights were always respected and never abused. DASH and Gold combined in Vaultoro are possible only if this proposal passes. It will strengthen all participating parties - not those who stay aside.
That's why I vote for this proposal !
Crap fees and I wouldn't recommend your service to anyone, so I see little point in voting for this.
"In certain high volume times Vaultoro and its subsidiaries reserves the right to sell gold to it's users that has not yet been acquired by Vaultoro and its subsidiaries."
Not even counting the 0.5% trading fees.
Insurance companies are good at 1 thing, calculating risk. The price of insuring gold secured at home is orders of magnitude higher than at a professional and audited vaulting facility. This is because the risk of theft from home is super high.
0.4% per year is far less than you would pay if you bought a vault and insurance yourself. It’s also far less than you would pay if you bought a space in a vault because we do such a large volume and pass saving on to the consumer.
This price also covers auditing by one of the largest auditors in the world (BDO international). This is something you don’t get with any other stable hedge.
All that and you get the convenience of converting back to DASH in an instant down to the cent! Now that’s somehow convenient.
I personally wonder if someone having 77 ounces of gold in a safe he bought would actually find any insurance for his gold at home. If so the insurance alone would exceed 0.4% p.a. by far.
If you buy physical gold u usually get charged about 5% on top of the spot price. In case you want to sell your physical gold again you’ll be paid 5% less than the spot price.
So you’ll have to buy the ounce (worth $1.301) for $1366,05 and have to sell it for $1.235,95 losing $130,1 per ounce. With 77 ounces traded back and forth you’d lose $10.017,7. This is is by far exceeding the cost of our service 25 years plus.
Now please add the amount you’d need for a safe and the money you’d need for insurance.
Should you sell your own gold at home, you’ll hardly be able to sell it per gram, but only per ounce.
As to your second point:
2.4kg
0.5% trading fees for the first 500g ~ $105
0.4% trading fees for the next kg ~ $167
0.3% for the remaining 900g ~ $113
in sum $385 trading fees for a $100.000 purchase, not $500 as you mentioned.
I didn't say $500 for trading fees, I said 0.5%. I was summarizing the trading fees, an approximation, not feeling it necessary to be precise. But given your more accurate calculation, I say $385 trading fees is too high. One of the virtues of crypto is near-flat transfer of value.. and there you are re-introducing the world to percentage based profits. How did that happen? Did it really cost you $385 to flip zeros and ones? You could of gone for flat-fee trading fees but the business man inside you decided otherwise.
One of the pillars of crypto is ridding counter party risk, and there you are selling insurance in case I am robbed or swindled by a third party; both in crypto and gold.
All in all, I find your product offering expensive and not as innovative as you like to think. I still have to trust and, therefore, take out insurance. I still have to pay high trading fees when the value of gold is high, even though it hasn't moved an inch.
Thanks but no thanks.
FWIW, I was aware of Josh on YT years back when he was in Sydney, Aus. (2013/14....somewhere around that time).
There are other more tangible projects, where resources are needed.
I'm sorry, but you do not have my support.
You can wait, and the future Dash Capital Venture, request funds and in exchange give a counterpart, company shares, etc.
The DAO will be happy to negotiate.
On another point. I previously sent many pre-sales questions to Vaultoro. This was on a number of times and never got a reply.
I highly recommend you improve your ability to answer questions sent to you. I'm not a customer but I never would invest large sums in a company that cannot properly answer sales questions.
Voting no
Perhaps you could just send your questions to me (moritz@vaultoro.com) and i will forward your questions to the person responsible.
You do not win a competition by inflating yourself and attesting to each other how great you are, just by standing outside the competition in real life . The sad thing is that it's not the opponents, the competitors or the enemies of Dash who try to prevent such a proposal to succeed but people who pretend to wish for its best.
If this proposal does not not succeed, I'm away from Dash, because I would have been proven wrong to take Dash's masternodes as guarantee for developping a world-class real money application .
voting has just begun!
But do I think MoKa will go out and really believe in all the efforts Dash is putting forth in Venezuela and Africa and help us make the world a more financially free place- ABSOLUTELY.
I love your service. I think it's incredibly important.
Free the people.
outweigh that. The cost are also more then reasonable.
So you have my support.
Here you go:
https://twitter.com/Vaultoro/status/999315037788483584
I'm not saying definitely don't vote for it, just understand what it is you are voting for.
The Tatiana Show - Kevin McKernan & Lyn Ulbricht
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q33N4s314Y4&feature=youtu.be
This will likely be a profitable business for them, so why we need to give them a freebie when they'll probably do it anyway? They see the value in supporting dash, and they will profit when keeping 90% of it in cold storage (see their terms of service).
So why we need to waste money funding something that they'll do anyway.
This is for me THE Great opportunity to open a whole new value transfer exchange that is totally independent of fiat- money - bazooka -shots and speculation sprees . Not to participate in it because you fear other cryptos is for me like preferring suicide because you can't support your fear of death.
It seems Vaultoro is seeking to become crypto-agnostic, as you've indicated in a response below. We at Dash could not be more happy about this, as we're quite confident in the ability of our product to outshine its competition.
What we're not interested in, however, is paying for integration without an exclusivity agreement. Below you've mentioned a 3-month exclusivity. While this is definitely on the right track, 90 days is hardly long enough for all your customers to even find out that you've added Dash, much less to have the thought and occasion to perhaps try it out for themselves.
Make the exclusivity deal for 13 months, and you have all my "yes" votes. You won't regret partnering with Dash, and I thank you for coming to the table.
Great fit with DASH
My only concern is that after adding Dash you will turn around and start adding other cryptocurrencies as well. Can we get some type of guarantee that no additional cryptocurrencies will be added for a given amount of time (say 18-24 months)?
We love DASH and can offer DASH / Gold as the only gold pair for the first 3 months with a huge marketing push.
We will also implement DASH/Eth and other Crytpo to Crypto pairs but Dash will have the exclusive Gold pair (along with bitcoin) for the first three months.
Our research has shown that withholding other currencies is not the best thing for Bitcoin or now for DASH, as people want options. Especially now that utility tokens in DAPPS are starting to come out. Lets say there is a decentralized app store where you need a special token to use it, then you will want to use Vaultoro to trade your DASH or Gold into this so you can use the DAPP.
DASH must not fear competition, it is one of the best crytpo currencies out there and does not need to fear competiton. This is what free markets are all about. By giving Dash a head start that market will gain the most liquidity anyway.
The important thing is choice and freedom to choose your money. DASH has everything in place to BE the best currency in the world. Now pairing it with a commodities exchange and pairing it to gold is just another step into proving its dominance. Now lets open it up to full allocated commodities trading! :)
I think its not enough to fear no competition, because this proposal is not about feelings but about to get into the competition in the first place
https://www.finlab.de/index.php?id=2
"FinLab's investment leverages Vaultoro to grow its products into multi-asset platforms. Other precious metals such as silver, platinum and palladium as well as (crypto) currencies such as Bitcoin or Ethereum should be integrated across all products."
Original text:
"Das Investment von FinLab nutzt Vaultoro für den Ausbau seiner Produkte zu Multi-Asset-Plattformen. Weitere Edelmetalle wie Silber, Platin und Palladium sowie (Krypto-)Währungen wie Bitcoin oder Ethereum sollen über alle Produkte hinweg integriert werden."
Why not offer a 12 month minimum exclusive for Dash. What you are offering ends up costing us $33k per month for the 3 month exclusive. It is not enough of a sweetener. I hope you can do better.
https://www.finlab.de/index.php?id=2
"FinLab's investment leverages Vaultoro to grow its products into multi-asset platforms. Other precious metals such as silver, platinum and palladium as well as (crypto) currencies such as Bitcoin or Ethereum should be integrated across all products."
Original text:
"Das Investment von FinLab nutzt Vaultoro für den Ausbau seiner Produkte zu Multi-Asset-Plattformen. Weitere Edelmetalle wie Silber, Platin und Palladium sowie (Krypto-)Währungen wie Bitcoin oder Ethereum sollen über alle Produkte hinweg integriert werden."
You say :"Yes, most of the Dash Masternodes are too stupid to see that "and "Are the Dash Masternodes really the only ones on the planet stupid enough to fall for this?" .In one statement you say: "A 90 day exclusivity is a joke", then suddenly "Anything less than a 12 month exclusivity makes no sense"- and then "Without at least a 12 month exclusivity this deal is worthless." And then : "As soon as they get paid they will add Litecoin, Bitcoin Cash, and others for free". So come back when you are sober and when you can speak without insulting fellow MNOs and can bring facts and arguments instead of contradictory paranoid insinuations .
https://www.finlab.de/index.php?id=2
"FinLab's investment leverages Vaultoro to grow its products into multi-asset platforms. Other precious metals such as silver, platinum and palladium as well as (crypto) currencies such as Bitcoin or Ethereum should be integrated across all products."
Original text:
"Das Investment von FinLab nutzt Vaultoro für den Ausbau seiner Produkte zu Multi-Asset-Plattformen. Weitere Edelmetalle wie Silber, Platin und Palladium sowie (Krypto-)Währungen wie Bitcoin oder Ethereum sollen über alle Produkte hinweg integriert werden."
Really smart!
Usually intelligent people try to get better deals in civilzed negotiations not by trolling around, insulting and behaving like the elephant in a china shopI
A better question would be, if Dash did not have its Treasury, would you still plan on adding Dash but without any exclusivity?
If so, thats great and its clear you really want Dash as part of your platform. If this is the case, perhaps compromising and giving us 6 months of exclusivity would give you a better chance of having this approved.
I am not going to encourage business's to only add Dash if they are getting paid to do so. Personally I want business's to know that its no good making proposals to simply add the coin to their platform.
We are sorry you feel this way - because we belive Vaultoro being worth to invest in since it‘s giving access to a whole new (bank independent) customer group (The Gold Industry). We dont think that "wait and see" is a value adding alternative compared to real world applications, that need real work and real world financing. We believe adding DASH to an already running and growing 100% NON-FIAT GOLDexchange to be something that will strenghten DASH.